108. Shaping Your Financial Future: Early Habits, Healthy Spending, and Relationships ft Aila Money

What if your childhood experiences with money have already set the stage for your financial future? This week's episode is about how we can make positive financial shifts. Whether recognising your spending triggers or acknowledging past teaching about money when you were younger, we can all progress towards a healthier financial lifestyle. Joining us in this episode are Elisabeth Prager and Nitika Vyas, co-founders of the money app Aila Money. 

Aila Money: the Personal Trainer app for your finances – helps you calculate the cost of your life goals and using data, behavioural science and human expertise helps you achieve them – one prompt at a time!

FOLLOW AILA MONEY:

• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/ailamoney/
• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/ailamoney/
• Website - https://ailamoney.com/

Chapters

• 0:00 Understanding Financial Behaviors and Habits
• 4:46 Developing Healthy Spending Habits
• 10:13 Consistency and Intentionality in Finances
• 15:25 Navigating Money Conversations With Your Partner
• 23:52 Breaking Gender Stereotypes in Finance
• 32:39 Improving Financial Habits and Mindset

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey guys, and welcome back to the Penny to Pounds podcast with your host, kia, and this is the podcast where you're able to dispel your myths, simplify difficult financial jargon and rectify your own personal problems. Happy Monday, everyone. I hope you have an amazing start to your week and, as always, I have a great episode lined up for you. We're gonna be talking about a lot of our behaviors and habits when it comes to finances, because I think a lot of people believe I'm just naturally bad of money. I'm naturally good of money, but there are a lot of things that go into the way you perceive money and the way you actually treat it. So, to go into that even further, I have some amazing guests with me, guests who are you, hiya.

Speaker 2: 0:35

I'm Natika, co-founder of Isla Money, and I'm Liz, the other co-founder of Isla Money.

Speaker 1: 0:39

Amazing. Thank you so much for joining me. I know you guys have a dozen travels to get here. Absolutely, where have you come from? I flew in this morning from Copenhagen. I appreciate that so much because I know we're going to go into some amazing gems here. But before we get any further, can you tell us a bit more about Isla Money?

Speaker 3: 0:55

Sure. So Isla started because the two of us actually have known each other for ages and ages and we both worked at the same bank and we shared sort of stories of you know, we got bonus, what are you doing with it? We're buying a house, how are you going about it? What's the mortgage provider saying, et cetera. And we realized that a lot of our friends were coming to us not saying here's what I am doing, but what should I be doing?

Speaker 3: 1:18

And on top of the should, we had to poke, prod, remind, twist arms, whatever you want to call it, exactly as Nithika says, to actually get them to do this right. So there was not only a sort of a learning gap, but also an action inaction or an intention action gap, if you want. And that's where we then started to sort of say, okay, great, this is a problem with our friends. But if we look at this more broadly, right, so, at the sort of industry, macro stats, if you want, oh my God, this is not a problem of our friends, this is far, far, far bigger. And that's how Isla Money was born.

Speaker 2: 1:54

Yeah, and like just to add to that.

Speaker 1: 2:00

I guess, like for me, I came from.

Speaker 2: 2:01

East London, so very close to here. That's me as well, and like and like low income background and say I didn't know any of this, like you know the finance world, or even thought about building wealth when I was growing up. For me it was just like, oh, you have to get a job and you work. I was just very lucky I went into finance and then got taught a lot of these things and for me it was really frustrating seeing actually how the wealthy get wealthier just because they have the information. They talk about money in a way that you don't necessarily do so if you aren't from that world. Um, and so that became a really big bugbear and it's like, oh, people don't know this stuff. Why don't we know this stuff? Why isn't this information as easily accessible to everyone? And that's really a big part of what we want to try and do.

Speaker 1: 2:42

I think that's amazing. I think there's a lot of similarities between why you guys started Isle of Money and why I cite pennies to pounds, because the information just isn't as accessible and there for people to be able to build their wealth and get to the points that they should be able to. Because it's just you're not really taught that at school.

Speaker 1: 2:57

You go into school you're taught Py into the big wide world and meant to understand how payslips work and pay taxes and all those kind of things, as if you're you know. You're just meant to wake up one day and it's in your head. So I think it's incredible that you guys are building. So let's get into financial behaviours and how people manage money. So I want to come to you both first and say what are some of the common financial behaviors that you see people struggle with the most, because I think that's what a lot of people have. I think a lot of people don't even realize that it's a behavior and not just part of them. A lot of people that I have, especially with friends, it's like oh I'm just naturally bad, oh I just can't stop spending, when really it's just things that they've grown up with or it's triggers.

Speaker 3: 3:48

So what are some of the common ones that you guys have seen? So I think we'll take one each and you do one side and I'll do the other. Do that, yeah, do you want to go first? So one thing that we've seen, uh, with the users of the beta version of isla, is actually that people struggle to allow themselves to spend money right so rather than the overspending or the oh, I have a.

Speaker 3: 4:01

They're actually saying I feel super guilty or I feel ashamed if I'm putting money aside for me. Um, and, and what's fascinating, one of the things that we learned, again when we dug into this a bit more, is that your money behaviors start or are set by the age of seven. Wow, right, very young, yeah, super young, right. So I have two young kids and so I'm super intentional, or already right, the poor kids, they're like two and four.

Speaker 1: 4:24

They just want to play their toys, the mom's saying no, this is how money works.

Speaker 3: 4:28

Yeah, but you have until you're seven.

Speaker 3: 4:29

We have a deadline on this Exactly. But when you start to realize that, right, you also then start to sort of be able to have the story in your head to say where to, or you start to ask yourself those questions about where does this come from? And many of those behaviors are set when you're really really young, right? So, as I said, we have the problem where we hear a lot about people not being comfortable spending money on themselves, and one of the things that we then sort of say to them is think about it as almost like a little fund for you, right?

Speaker 3: 5:00

be it a fun fund or a treat me fund or something, and it can be small. It doesn't have to be the you know, I don't know hermes handbag. It doesn't have to be the jimmy chews. It can be 20 pounds that you spend on going by yourself to read a book, have a coffee and eat a cookie right, just treat yourself to that or use it to save up for something. But allow yourself and take those small steps to start with, obviously within whatever budget you have, but take those small steps to really allow yourself to treat yourself if you want.

Speaker 1: 5:33

Yeah, I think that's amazing, especially when you say don't have to be grand. I think a lot of people think if I've got to treat myself, I've got to book a holiday somewhere and I'm like for me when I decide it's time to treat myself like, like you said, I'm just gonna take myself out, maybe for a nice something, some food I like yeah sit down with a nice book and yeah, that this is me treat myself, and now you're getting used to putting yourself as part of your budget. I think that's.

Speaker 2: 5:54

That's a good thing and we've actually set that as homework and like you know it's and reminder people that has to be zero by the end of the year, like I don't care how that's spent, but you don't want to have this as a part of your normal savings. The aim is to spend this money, because that is the goal of this money yeah, it's so so, so important but that's the one side of it.

Speaker 2: 6:14

So you know the the mindset of guilt on spending on yourself, and I'd say both of us have a bit of an issue when it comes to that. The other side I don side is what you mean look at the way.

Speaker 3: 6:27

It's okay to accept it knowing your problems and working with them um.

Speaker 2: 6:32

But then there is another side where you know and again this comes from your behaviors and what you've learned as a kid of actually, if you're stressed, you spend.

Speaker 2: 6:41

Now I know this is when I'm stressed I will eat, but some people, when they're stressed, they turn to shopping as their way of staying in control, and it is a behavior. It is something that's really hard to do, and the reason sometimes this happens is actually it is a dopamine hit of another sort. So for me that's chocolate, for other people, hey, it's that actually spending money gives them that dopamine hit. And actually our view on money it comes from the same place and it has the same dopamine hit, as does kind of sex, rock, rock and roll and chocolate as well. All of it is in that same part and it lights up the same part of the brain. So that's why that happens too, and again, it's a behavior that's learned really early and takes some while to change. But all of these behaviors, whichever side or in the middle you are, can be changed. It just takes a bit of awareness and working on this as a longer term thing absolutely.

Speaker 1: 7:35

I think the more that we talk about this, the more people kind of reflect on themselves. Yeah, because I've had conversations with people where you know, like you said, I spend too, and then when I say to them, okay, so when do you spend, they can usually track it back to oh, the last time I spent was I was upset because of X, y, z thing, and then I was up and I ordered this, do you know? So people can really identify what their triggers are. So when it comes, you're like, oh, I know what I'm going to do here.

Speaker 3: 7:59

I and it's super easy to put in place really small rules, right.

Speaker 3: 8:05

Example so any shopping basket that you fill online be that I don't know Amazon or Waitrose or wherever right you leave it in overnight, right, so you can fill it, you can save it and you go back the next day. The other thing is that you set yourself a limit on the amount, right? So if you say anything that is over and that'll be different for everybody 20 pounds, 100 pounds, et cetera I just need to take a 30-minute break to whatever right, go grab that coffee, do the laundry, put the kids to bed, whatever it is in your life that you do. Clearly, you can tell I'm a mom, really boring life, right, but but that you sort of go, okay, let me get that distance, before I then go back and say, okay, that that trigger, I've been able to really sort of come to grips with it. I've had a bit of distance and now I'm okay to spend it because I think it's important, or actually, no, I, I need to stop myself yeah, absolutely, I think I do that all the time.

Speaker 1: 9:02

I mean, I'm not really the biggest spender anyway, but when I come to online shop I usually I think, just because you have natural downtime I do at night myself but I put stuff in my basket and the next morning I probably take half of it out anyway. I'm like yeah, I didn't really want that correct yeah, didn't want it.

Speaker 1: 9:14

And then the things I did want, I'll probably check out. But it's probably a lot less wine this you put in because, like you said, it is fun. I'm not to pretend like it's not as fun. Just scroll on and add, oh, I like that, I like that. Next morning I'm like I look at the amount I said I don't want to spend that kind of money. I'm not spending that money. Take that all out. It is good to put in place those things for yourself. So now I want to ask you we talk about when it comes to being who's trying to get into the habits of exercising regularly and, you know, eating healthily. If you want to achieve a certain place, whatever that is for yourself, you have to have a habit and routine. That also plays a part when it comes to finances. So I want to ask you both how important is having good habits and having a routine when it comes to finances? How crucial is it for people to be successful and to feel like they've got a good handle on their money?

Speaker 2: 10:05

I think it's super successful. Um, as you said, it is the same when it comes to money, like fitness, as it is to any part of your life. I think what you'll see as a buzzword everywhere is consistency is key. Yeah, um, and it's just. You know, as humans, we find it hard to stay consistent and actually I think this is one of the areas where money makes it easier to stay consistent, and actually I think this is one of the areas where money makes it easier to stay consistent because we are lazy, we don't want to think about this.

Speaker 2: 10:31

There are mechanisms to allow you and help you to do that. Great examples are whether you know you can set up direct debits or standing orders that will instantly put into an investment account or a savings account and portion out your money in a way, when it comes in, that you are, you don't have to think about it, and that is one way of really like managing that stuff and, like you know, making that conscious decision, maybe at the start of the year, maybe at halfway through the year, and going okay, this is how I want to portion my money, really understanding it and then just letting it go on autopilot for a bit so that's one way, but it is about making that conscious choice as well, and there are ways of doing that too yeah.

Speaker 3: 11:13

So for me, I think I'd add to that and say actually, it's also about being intentional about it. So there's the intention of how I put money away, but there's also that habit and consistency of saying do you know what? I'm going to take a bit of time for this, right, and we were joking just before this to say if you sleep in your exercise clothes, you are more likely to actually go and go for that run or go to the gym, right? Yeah, I would say the same about money, right? So if you put a diary invite into your calendar to yourself, right, it doesn't have to be to anybody else, it doesn't have to be with an IFA, it doesn't have to be with your bank, but you do that regularly, just to be it. Review your budget, review your investments, review your pension, whatever it is Right, create that will, whatever the thing is that's on your financial admin or financial to do list. Then you're more likely to actually make it happen.

Speaker 3: 12:07

The same thing I would say and this is sort of looking at the dynamic when you have two people in a relationship and they're dealing with their money again, being intentional about having these conversations, setting aside the time to say we're going to have the conversation about how we're going to do our budgets, how we're going to pay off the mortgage, you know, whether we're going to take this interest rate or that, or whether we're even going to renew it early or whatever right Like, or whether we're going to look at our pensions together.

Speaker 3: 12:35

If you have those conversations and you have them regularly and you create the time and you have somebody else holding you to account, you are also more likely to be successful, also because you normalize it right. This is the same, this is the. The sort of. There's the, the setting the intention and then normalizing the behavior right there's. I always think there's something super fascinating in behavioral science which is the whole. If I imagine I'm going to be person X, say I don't know the fitness freak, then I'm'm halfway there I've obviously not made it right, like I'm.

Speaker 3: 13:08

I'm not, I don't have a six pack, etc. But. But the point is like I've started that journey. Right now I have to do a little in order to get a little bit further, etc. And the same with your, the same with your finances I agree and like to add to that.

Speaker 2: 13:19

Like you know, it's not easy and we recognize that and that's why, actually, what we're trying to do at Isla is build that in and be those nudges and those prods for you. So, actually, where we have agreed with people how they want to work towards their goals, we can do those check ins. So we say, hey, you wanted to do a, an hour this weekend, did you do it, and what are your outcomes? So, isla, we want to be that person that helps with that. Um, ultimately, everyone has to do their own work on it, but you know, we liken ourselves to a personal training app where we just want to be that personal trainer for your finances and go hold you to account and say hey, did you spend that time like you wanted to, or did you move those funds like you wanted to, or did you stick to?

Speaker 1: 14:06

a budget. I think that is really important. When you said, like the accountability element, I think when you don't tell someone, it's easy to not do it because you haven't let anyone down. I mean you let yourself down but I think a lot of people can reconcile that you say, oh well, I'll move on. But when you tell someone and someone's gonna come and check in and say, oh yeah, you said you going to do that, did you do it? And you're like oh, I didn't. People can be like why didn't you do that? I'm usually that to my friends. My friends will come and tell me things I said I'm the wrong person because I'm going to check in.

Speaker 1: 14:32

So if you're not going to do it, don't tell me, but you need that especially want to stick to something correct.

Speaker 3: 14:36

And isn't it fascinating that, like, we never talk about money? Now, obviously you do, we do a lot, but it's such a taboo right and therefore it's it. I think it's even harder with money than with exercise, because it's so easy to be like, hey, you know what? I bought a new gym outfit and I really want to try. Or I bought a new gym subscription or new trainers or whatever and I want to try them out. Right, you, you're happy to share that with your friends. Yeah, you're actually quite excited. It's usually something where you're like woohoo, whereas if you go, I moved my funds out of the default pension allocation. Right, yeah, you're a. Your friends are going to look at you and be like why are you sharing this?

Speaker 3: 15:11

I don't really like this okay yeah, so I think there's almost all that like it's worse in finance because of the stigma.

Speaker 1: 15:18

Yes, I agree because there's just this, like we don't really talk about that I agree and I think, off the back of what you said earlier, I want to ask you both. Then people have issues talking about money. We've said this already people, it's taboo, people don't like it. But I find, especially in couples, it's hard to have that conversation. So I have some friends, um, who speak to me individually they're in a couple right speak to me individually about their finances, but they won't speak to each other because they find it very hard to talk to each other. And I told them both it's very simple just sit down and have this conversation. But to me it's simple because this is my, my world and my life.

Speaker 1: 15:51

But what would you say to anyone who's like I want to have this conversation with my partner about money, or, but they don't want to talk about it? Number one or they just shy away from the conversation because they find it awkward. And I don't want to divulge their situation, because a lot of people are going to be planning their future to people and you can't go into something long term if you have no idea where their finances are at and how they view money and if it doesn't match up with yours, that could be a big issue yeah, I would say actually even the relationship with money is bigger than your actual financials at the moment, because that is such a key part of what's going to happen in the future and actually understanding that to start with is really important.

Speaker 2: 16:27

And I think, for the main thing is being open and sympathetic, because actually we are all a result or a product of our past. Right, like no one wants to be bad with money, just the same way as no one wants to kind of get unhealthy, it's taking that moment to understand, okay, there is a reason they have this mindset. Let's work together to say actually there'll be some good and bad in both, right, and start with that level of kind of understanding of, okay, no one is going to be the same. And how do we work together and just ask the questions?

Speaker 3: 17:02

uh, ask honest, open questions so I actually think it's it's. I'd add to that it's. Three different things, right? The first one is do you share a set of life goals or a vision for life? Nothing about that conversation is about money, right? Very true, but all of it is enabled by money, so it's a really nice segue right and it's a terror. Honestly, it's a terrifying conversation to have it's like what are your life goals?

Speaker 1: 17:32

what do you want to achieve in this life?

Speaker 3: 17:34

yeah, but it's like where do you want to retire? Because all of a sudden you're going. Whoa, this is really long and, trust me, I still have conversations like that with my partner and we are not always aligned, right?

Speaker 2: 17:42

yeah?

Speaker 3: 17:42

and it's okay for that to be the case. But it's removing the conversation from money and making it about your life and making sure you're aligned on that, because then you have to sort of say, okay, but now we need to translate it right, and now we need to see if we want to make this happen. How do we make this happen together? Right, what are you going to put in? What am I going to put in? Is it 50-50? Is it the mechanism? Is it all of that, right?

Speaker 3: 18:28

So then you start to talk about the mechanisms, which there are certain ways that you can split things and there are certain scared of is somewhat the relationship with money that nithika's just mentioned. But actually it's the feeling of fairness, because it's the point of whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You earn more than I do, yet we're paying 50 50 for this, right? I'm the one who's taking Matt leave and I'm not getting whatever the pension contribution you are. Why are you not paying, mike? What? So it's the fairness that's that's really at the heart of it, which, for many of us, is actually a value that we care about quite a lot, right, and that's the really hard conversation to have right.

Speaker 2: 19:03

I would add to that and say, actually fairness is one of the things. So it's the emotions you put around money, so that could be fairness. It could be fear and control of fear of being judged about your finances or the way you've previously dealt with them if you don't feel like you've been up to where you should have been, or also the control, like actually for some people they've become so independent.

Speaker 2: 19:27

It's like I don't know that I want us to be making a decision decision I've been so used to me making a decision so that this is all the emotions. So fairness is definitely one, but it's not the only one people struggle with totally fair.

Speaker 3: 19:42

It's the yeah, there's so many, there's so many emotions and like money and emotions.

Speaker 2: 19:45

That's why we think it's the yeah, there's so many, there's so many emotions and like money and emotions. That's why we think it's such a big thing.

Speaker 3: 19:48

Yeah, it's massive but it's being able to disconnect the two right. And I think it's about again if you are in a relationship with somebody saying let's not start with the mechanisms and let's not start with the, is this fair? Is this control or is it not? But let's paint the picture of where we want to get to together and agree that right, because it's gonna look very different if you don't want kids, or if you want early retirement, or if you both want to start a business. There's, you know, all of this dictates it, but you, if you can agree on where you want to get to, it's half the battle won yeah, and and yeah, that's exactly what we try and do with with isla the app as well, when you know we're coming from it, from.

Speaker 2: 20:30

Actually, we don't want to be another person that's just telling you to save. That's not the right option. It's like let's work out your why, what are your life goals and how do we help you achieve all of your life goals? And that's different for everyone. Not everyone wants a 2.5, kids, the house, but, yeah, you know everyone's life is so different. Yeah, let's calculate your life goals and then whether it's getting you more confident with your saving or your investing. You have a reason for why you're doing it rather than just doing it, because that is what's like the theme of the moment.

Speaker 1: 21:06

Yeah, I think it's so great that you both mentioned that, because so I'm in my mid-20s and not my friends, obviously around the same age, and when I have conversations, especially with the guys, I think there's a lot of pressure on guys when it comes to money. Yeah, especially those in my age group, and a lot of them are saying, yeah, I need to do this, I should have that much saved. But you know I'm a lot of them haven saying, yeah, I need to do this, I should have that much saved. But you know, a lot of them haven't even started their real career yet because they're still trying to figure out what they want to do, but they feel this societal pressure to have had X amount saved.

Speaker 1: 21:31

Like one of my friends works like three, four jobs because he believes he needs to have so much money. You know, if he wants to get in a relationship and do anything long term, I need to him. We sat down and I said to him what are your goals? Because my goals are very different, which is why my lifestyle is different to yours, because what I want to achieve is different to yours. But if he was judging himself based on his friends, I said but you've got friends who have kids, so their motivations are going to be different to yours. You don't have kids right now.

Speaker 1: 22:08

So you shouldn't have any responsibilities right now so you can live at home, and I think it's all that pressure that people don't put into perspective and reflect on their own goals. And they said they look outwardly and say, oh my gosh, I'm not doing well enough compared to my peers it's called keeping up with the jes.

Speaker 3: 22:24

That's what you put your finger on and it's a completely normal thing for our brains to do. We're primed that way and I think it's sort of with everything that we've talked about. Sometimes it's about being very conscious and going. I know this is happening right now and I can choose whether or not I'm going to listen to that inner voice that says you need to be like the person next door who you know. I need to show off whatever. I need to have the same money, house expenses, or actually maybe I widen my view and say what are the people that I'm perhaps not comparing myself to? That I should be comparing myself to, right?

Speaker 3: 23:09

so we're very fortunate to live in a place where actually most of our needs are met yeah that's right and it's really really hard hard to remember that sometimes because you compare yourself to those in your closest circle and those that you aspire to be like right and actually sometimes taking that more broad perspective can help yes absolutely and you touched on something else which is also a huge frustration for us, and it works two ways.

Speaker 2: 23:38

You mentioned how actually it's more of your guy mates that feel that pressure yes, and that is something we are massively like. It irks us and we really want to do something about it because actually, no, we need to get rid of that. Stereotypes. Finance is not just for men. Both men and women need to look at this like yes, we are, you know, pushing towards having equal pay, but even when we get there, we need to make sure women and men are both taking the pressure of looking after the finances.

Speaker 1: 24:10

This isn't a gender role and it doesn't have to be yeah, I completely agree, and I think my male friends may listen to this, I think I don't need someone who wants to look after it all I can let go of a job and I can have some more free time. You know, know, I think that's good.

Speaker 2: 24:25

Actually, they probably just want a date night with you, rather than you want free dates.

Speaker 3: 24:30

I'm good, but the interesting thing is going back to the question you asked before. Some of that is a conversation you can have with your partner, right, and possibly not the one you have on date number one, but it is one about sort of saying hey, I want to do this together and you don't have to out earn me, you don't have to earn the same thing, but I want us to take an equal share, right? The way that things are usually split and this is a stereotype that we sort of play into and exacerbate is small money for women, right? Oh, we're really good at doing the budget, so we're really good at you know, know, buying, doing the shopping and buying the whatever big money men, right? So I don't know if you've known, I'm sure you know this. Actually, in adverts, right, about financial services, men are depicted with glasses and suits and looking all professional and portfolios and notes women, cups of tea, piggy banks yeah, right it's true and you just sort of go.

Speaker 3: 25:28

All of this plays into that stereotype. And actually, you know, we're very passionate about the, the gender piece, partly because it it is on both sexes. Right, this is an individual thing, um, you need to be independent and and create your own feet to stand on, right, um, so so yeah, that's where it's all. Right, I'm gonna shut up now.

Speaker 2: 25:51

I agree and you know it's cool, it causes mental health issues for both like so. I've worked in a counseling space volunteering, and you hear both men and women call up with this issue and it both need to be able to have a level of financial literacy and be comfortable. We're not saying one person. Like you know, everything has to be equal in a relationship, but everyone has to be comfortable. Yes, relationship absolutely.

Speaker 1: 26:16

I think we've covered so much I want to kind of move on to mindset. Yes, I think it goes about saying that a positive mindset when it comes to finances is crucial, but if someone's listened to this and they're like everything you said is so valid, I understand it. However, I still just don't feel great about money and finance. I just can't shift how I view it. What would be some of your tips to actually make that positive move towards feeling you know, yeah, towards feeling more positive towards money and finances?

Speaker 2: 26:45

Yeah, so there is an element of you know and I know I've come from this of a scarcity mindset, of fear of not having enough money or money running out, or that kind of element which allows that guilt when it comes to spending money, and that can be guilt of it running out or guilt of not feeling like you're confident enough to deal with money, whether that's investing, budgeting, whatever and it's like moving yourself into an abundance mindset of saying being positive and saying I've got this, I will be able to get money, I am able to look after myself, I am able to learn new things, and that for us, on the money scale, is learning to be confident with your finances.

Speaker 2: 27:30

And it's starting small and knowing that you know it's going to take time. Like with everything we've done in life, nothing was easy when we first started, whether it was learning to read, walk, ride a bike, and it's taking that at a step, at a time. Now Liz has a great analogy that I will let her say on this, but we will say it is being being speaking to yourself in a positive way and putting the steps in place in small, actionable pieces yeah, so my favorite example here is the marathon.

Speaker 3: 28:00

Nobody woke up one day and said I'm gonna run a marathon today having never done any exercise. No, but it's 42 plus kilometers.

Speaker 3: 28:11

The first guy who did it in Athens, way back when where this comes from he died at the end of it, right, so clearly, even he didn't make it all right. So the point is there's the couch to 5K, there's the stretches, there's the go to the gym and work on whatever squats and pull-ups and tummy muscles, et cetera, hol holistically, and it's incremental, it's small, it's one thing at a time and you go from 5k to 10k to a half marathon and eventually you make the marathon right. But again, it's, it's those small things. I also want to add to something that nifica said.

Speaker 3: 28:45

A lot of people. This is around the mindset thing. There is a scarcity piece, but there's often also just an overwhelm, because it feels like it's a lot right and when you sort of get behind on one bill or one thing that you've been meaning to do, all of a sudden you're like it feels like it's piling up and oh my god, and whatever right. So, as she said, same sort of technique, do something. One thing, don't try and sort it all. You aren't going to climb everest in a day.

Speaker 3: 29:17

There's a reason we have base camp, it's true, but it's, it's the really small stuff. You don't climb everest in a day, but you know it's where you want to get to. You know that your 42k is where you want to get to, but you've got to take that first step over that starting line. And that might be taking that bill and paying it and doing nothing else for the day and moving on to doing the next one the next day, or actually you know, whatever it, whatever it is. But but it's those small incremental steps and sort of reinforcing in your head.

Speaker 1: 29:48

I can do this yeah, I just did it. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think I have a good story on this. So about two years ago now, 2022 I recorded a tv show with channel four, so different people came on with different problems, and episode one I remember vividly um, it was this young woman, lovely woman, earning good money earning great money, in fact, for her age, what she was doing but she had a debt draw overflowing debt draw of just bills that were overdue that she just was scared to open. Every time a bill would come. She wouldn't even look at it, just straight in the drawer.

Speaker 1: 30:21

And I remember myself and the two other experts, we were telling her you should tackle one, yeah, and she, I remember she said to us that she couldn't imagine a day that the drawer be empty. I said it will, you just have to take it step by step. And then she came and found us about six months later. She told us, she took a picture and showed us the drawer was empty. She said I did it each day. Like you said, I tackled each one and I went on the phone and I spoke to providers and I did what I had to do. It was scary at first, but then, once I got the ball rolling. It was easy just to tackle them and so the drawer was empty. And that drawer now has utensils in it. It was in the kitchen, so now it's utensils and no more bills.

Speaker 1: 30:52

And I think, yeah, I think it is that small step. I think people, like I said, they get overwhelmed. They know, for example, I don't know, I owe five thousand pounds to all these different creditors, right, and you're like, oh my gosh, five thousand pounds. I don't know what I'm gonna do, instead of just saying, right, the smallest is what? A hundred? Let me get on the phone to them and have a conversation, then I'm going to move to the next one. Then you feel like you can celebrate a small win and say, oh, I've gained £100 now.

Speaker 3: 31:14

Now we're down and you've said something super important there Celebrate the small win, right. Don't go out and spend £5,000 just because you've paid one bill, right. But again, take the coffee around the corner with your book or go out for you know a night with friends, etc. Go do something to sort of go hey, you know what I did this, this was scary and actually I can share the fact that I did it and I'm going to reward myself for it, right, and then do two the next day and so on and so forth.

Speaker 2: 31:42

And then the other thing to add to this, and so I will give myself as an example uh, I'm absolutely on top of my finances, but if it comes to my flat and organization I can't do it like I when you mentioned the drawer, like my cupboards and stuff, like I can't organize that. It's just not in my brain. I just don't have the ability to do it. But I have some lovely friends who have come around and helped me organize things and actually it's about that.

Speaker 2: 32:10

It's about knowing what your strengths are and knowing actually you know what. If someone puts it in a place for me, once you've got the ball rolling, I'm okay, but ask for help, yes ask for help, like whether that's your group of friends or whether that is something like our app or something else, like get the help where you need it, because sometimes, when it does feel overwhelming, just having someone hold your hand to start with is all you need to try and get you there, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 32:39

How can people then who've been listening, identify their own financial habits and maybe biases towards money? Um, so they can make that step towards improving it, because I think some people, like we said, we've spoken about a lot here. Some might resonate. Some might they might say I think I'm all right with money. How can we actually sit down and reflect and see what they're doing well and maybe areas that they can improve on?

Speaker 3: 33:00

So I think it's a bit of an introspective exercise, right, because there is no perfect. It's not like we can hold up a personality or something and say this is perfect. This person has perfect financial behavior because it's different for everybody, right? So I think certain people struggle with budgets, certain people struggle with that, other people are wanting to invest, etc. So there's certain behaviors that we all sort of deep down know we have, and it's identifying that and then going okay, so what's the again, the small thing that I can do around that, right, if it's investing as an example, right, which we haven't touched on so much, it's terrifying.

Speaker 3: 33:42

The language is all gobbledygook, right. And then there's lots of long words where you just sort of go, oh my God, and you don't even know where to actually hit the button to put your money, and it's hard, right. But then sit down, talk to a friend, if you've got one, use the utensils or sorry, not utensils, but the tools that are available, be that an app like ours or many others that are out there and actually just sort of say you know what? This in the next three months, don't make it tomorrow. Give yourself some time to get used to this idea as well, but I'm going to set myself a deadline, and that's the thing that I'm working on, and that's the thing that in three months time, I'm going to tell somebody now that I'm doing it and I can then go back and say, yeah, I did it. I invested my first £10 or £100 or whatever. And that will be different for everybody, because we are all so different.

Speaker 1: 34:37

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 34:38

And I think just to add to that as well, actually, yeah, you're right, someone might be looking and going hey, you know what, I've got things under order, I am good. I would just still say to someone maybe an hour, a month or a quarter, whatever you want to give it, because actually what you'll find is people are very good. Now, like you know, I have so many friends who are like I'm all on top of my budget, I don't need any help. You know, I've got my spending down, I am living within my means at the moment.

Speaker 2: 35:07

Our question is really actually, yes, a lot of people are, but what is your long term and what are you doing towards your future? And that's the part that people find harder to imagine or see what they need. And actually I'd use that hour, even if you do know your budget for now, to say, hey, where do I want my future to be? And ask that as a question. Um, because as if, if you are living within your means at the moment, there is nothing that's going to make you change your behavior. You are like I'm good, I've got this, look at the future, look at where you want to be and what you want to achieve as your first question for this and and I think sorry I'm going to add that again is you don't know what you don't know.

Speaker 3: 35:50

That's true, right.

Speaker 3: 35:52

So we think we already said it's such a taboo to talk about money.

Speaker 3: 35:57

There's so much shame associated with asking for help around money, right, but actually going and saying I've got it sorted and I think I sort of understand my long term, but I don't understand the mechanisms that I need to get there Right of understand my long term, but I don't understand the mechanisms that I need to get there, right. So you know, one of the terrifying things we will all have to think about one day is planning for what happens when we're not there, right. For me, the really stark moment was I had two kids and all of a sudden I was like, oh my, now I really have to think about this because if something happens, then the state pretty much has rules and that's what's gonna be happening, right. But it's sort of knowing, knowing how to then go about it and what actually has to happen, and asking for help, right again, friends, potentially professionals, etc. Or apps like ours to to sort of find out what it is that you don't know absolutely I have had a had a ball this episode.

Speaker 1: 36:50

This has been so insightful, but before we end it, I want to ask you both what would be your number one tip or piece of advice that you want to leave our listeners with when it comes to financial habits and improving how you view money.

Speaker 2: 37:03

For me, it's starting as early as possible, and you know, yes, that for everyone they're like yes, that's yesterday, but start now, start checking. Unfortunately, I think investment is no longer a luxury. Everyone needs to be comfortable investing. I'm not saying you have to be risky um, you know there are different risk tolerances, but everyone has to get comfortable with that to a certain extent, and so start as early as possible amazing and for me it's putting that time in the diary.

Speaker 3: 37:33

It's really simple, both for yourself and or with a partner right yeah, it's once a week, it's once a month, it's once a quarter, whatever works for you yeah, thank you both so much.

Speaker 1: 37:45

This has been such an insightful episode. Thank you for for having us. Honestly, it's been so good For everyone listening and watching. Where can they find you and find out more about the app?

Speaker 3: 37:55

So it's wwwailamoneycom.

Speaker 2: 37:59

And that's A-I-L-A money.

Speaker 1: 38:01

Exactly, we're also on Instagram with the Aila Money tag, whatever you call it, sorry, you can tell we're not exactly social media and similarly on linkedin under isla money amazing all the links will be in the episode description anyway, so you can click through and go straight to the pages that you want to find. But yes, thank you so much for joining me. I will be back again next week with another episode. Thank you, bye guys, thank you.