118. The Cost of Love and Legacy: Money Conversations, Parenthood Decisions, and Societal Pressures ft Maya Saffron

This week's episode we're joined by Maya, host of Maya’s Minutes podcast, to discuss finances in relation to love and womanhood. We explore the dynamics of observing your partner's money habits and why understanding these early on can prevent future conflict. The discussion extends to the pressures surrounding motherhood and career choices, and things that women can do to financially prepare for starting a family.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Money and Relationships
• 6:32 Observing Partner's Money Habits
• 18:04 Impact of Finances on Women's Decisions
• 22:49 Challenges of Women in Corporations
• 28:19 Navigating Corporate Challenges and Gender Disparities
• 36:22 Strategic Planning for Maternity Leave

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey guys and welcome back to the Pennies to Bounds podcast with your host, kia, and this is a podcast where you're into to spoil your myths, simplify difficult financial jargon and rectify your own personal problems. Happy Monday, everyone. Hope you've had an amazing weekend and I'm back again, as always, with an incredible episode for you. But if you haven't listened to the last episode it was a few weeks ago now I had to take a break. The last episode was all about getting into property. We were talking to an amazing property apprentice about her journey from 17 to her current age, 20, and how she got into property, what that looks like, luxury properties and all that jazz. So if you haven't listened to that, go back to that episode first and then come back. But this episode is going to be talking about a lot of things talking about relationships, talking about being a woman, talking about just the things that I'm excited to talk about how it relates to money, and I've got an incredible guest for you. So, guest, who are you?

Speaker 2: 0:50

Hi everyone. That was a lovely intro. I'm Maya. I am the host of the Maya's Minutes podcast, where you will find Kia on series seven, and I'm also a technical architect and passionate about women's issues. I guess hence why there's so much women's stuff in our episode.

Speaker 1: 1:06

Yes, but I'm looking forward to it. I want to ask you how did you get into your career that you're in right now, Because I think that's a bit of a bit of a unique career. When I first met you, I was like, oh, that's very interesting. How did you do that? Tell us so. I was.

Speaker 2: 1:19

I left school with A-levels. I didn't go to university, which was a massive biggie. I'm from an ethnic background, so you can imagine. And then I became a personal trainer and I very quickly realized that this was like eight years ago more, maybe 10 years actually I'm 28. So when I was 18, yeah, 10 years ago and then I could see that the fitness industry and PT was starting to blow up. So it was starting to get quite saturated. So I realized, okay, if I'm going to do this, I need to really niche in something.

Speaker 2: 1:50

So I did pre and postnatal, so that's training women through pregnancy and thereafter. And then I got to around six years into that and I was doing well. I had an established client base. It was good. But this is where fitness was like popping. Now Every other person is talking to you about their supplements, every other person knows what booty bands they like, like it's common knowledge everywhere.

Speaker 2: 2:14

And to make it in the fitness industry at this point, you need to have a massive digital online presence, and there's nothing wrong with that, and I don't doubt that if I'd put my efforts into that, I could have done that. It's just that I do feel like you have to make a lot of decisions when you do that and choices, and sadly, as women, you are forced to sexualize yourself quite a lot. And I wasn't willing to do that and it wasn't my dream I'd done it, I'd lived out what I wanted from PT. So I thought, okay, I need to do something now which is going to help me with my new goals, which is getting on the property ladder and having regular income, Because when you have a life of a self-employed person, particularly personal training, you don't have regular income. You have very good months and difficult months, but you have to live bad in the good months to help you in the difficult months.

Speaker 2: 3:03

And I came across tech. I thought, okay, tech sounds good. You know I'm young enough to have grown up with tech to an extent. I know it's the future. I know there'll be lots of jobs in it. I'm sure, like even with personal training, you've got a unique. Anything that you do that's self-employed, that you have to market yourself for, you do have a unique insight into how tech works. And I had a podcast as well before not my husband, it's a different one and that also gave me. So I thought, with everything I've done tech-esque, I'm sure I should be able to pick this up somewhere.

Speaker 2: 3:37

Um, so I did a full stack developer course online. It timed itself perfectly with lockdown, so I was at home doing my clients online, finishing with them straight into like three, four hours of study, learning to code html, css, javascript, python, sql, and then I landed my, finished that in about a year and a half. Um landed my first role before I finished the course. Um, because something else that personal training taught me was networking and how to speak to people and, just you know, ask for what you want.

Speaker 2: 4:13

Essentially, um, and yes, I started working my first job then. It was a startup, so it was very much like you're getting a lot of experience not being treated well and not getting paid what you should, but I think that's just how you start, you know. I mean. So, uh, that was my first job. And then my second job was like a proper, like good paycheck, benefits, like you've got a seat at the table kind of thing. Now and I'm in my third role and, um, we've just been acquired by a big major company, tech company rather. So opportunity looks good and I hope to continue.

Speaker 1: 4:51

That's incredible. In those 10 years, I feel like you've lived so many lives. It feels it. Trust me, I don't feel like I'm 28. But I think it's great. It's nice to hear stories and journeys like your own, because I think a lot of people believe that whatever you do, once you leave university, for many people or once you hit that age of around 18, 19, that's what you have to do for the rest of your life, 100%. And it's not that I mean people start over all the time. People start over at 20, 30, 40, 50 and so on, and here in your journey is very much so testament to that.

Speaker 1: 5:24

But I want to kind of come back because it's going to relate to what we're talking about today. You mentioned, obviously, talking about pay and talking about you were saving up for your first property at that point. So I want to come to the topic of money. Yes, I want to talk about money in relation to love and relationships, because I think this is a massive thing. I I agree.

Speaker 1: 5:42

Recently, on the pennies pounds Instagram page, we posted a post on ways that you can start conversations. I know you saw it, loved it On first dates. Right, talking about money, because that is a difficult topic and that's kind of a different end of the spectrum which I'm going to come to you about. But first dates is really intense, right, and we see online there's a lot of rhetoric around I, right, and we see online there's a lot of rhetoric around. I need a rich man or I need a girl who's got herself together, but how do you actually go about having this conversation? So we posted that and it got some good reactions from people. You know, kind of got people thinking. So, bringing it back to kind of like present day and even your situation, let me ask you when is the right time to talk about money in a relationship? Because is there a right time? Is it right at the beginning? Like we said, first dates, is it once you guys have sealed a deal and now we're together?

Speaker 2: 6:30

is it right before you get married, when is the right time? So I've been with my partner eight years, um, and we were very lucky in that we've got together young and we had struggle. At the time, it was appropriate to struggle based on today's expectations. Like you said, women now and men expect the other to be at a certain level before anyone's even learned how to walk, and it's crazy, and I'm really blessed. Both my partner and I are very lucky that we found each other at a time where it was acceptable for us to not have money. Like that is an acceptable thing While you're on the grind, you're not supposed to have money. I don't know where we've got that loss. That is the rules and I think for us, because we didn't have any money, there wasn't really much to talk about money-wise. I think what instead there was talk about is observing what each other's patterns are with money, and I was very I have been very blessed and we spoke about this on my podcast where I've had very good role modeling of money.

Speaker 2: 7:34

I didn't grow up in a house that, um, there was a lot. There was debt, um, both my parents worked my whole life and therefore, and not to be fair, you can work and still have money problems. But they worked and they're very savvy with their money and as a result of that, they managed to buy a property and then buy another property. My brother and I didn't struggle in terms of not having things paid for us. We didn't live frivolously, as you mentioned similar for yourself. Like you know, we a lot of my friends didn't have a house, for example, and they might live on council estates, but their cars were nicer than ours or they had sky tv or things like that. But what my parents valued was things like family time because we had holidays quite a lot and um, having our needs met, so like food, water, roof over our head, and they didn't. My parents didn't want to have debts, they didn't want to be stressed, so they put that before other things and I think that was a good way. But as a result of that, you pick up things as children which are just savvy like you, don't you leave a room, you turn the light off, you, you, you see this. You put the bathroom and you turn off until you're in the room, like things, things, little things. You don't waste, and so when you have a long term relationship with a partner.

Speaker 2: 8:49

Those are the kind of things not specifically those examples but you need to, I think, be observing from very early what this person's spending and money traumas and habits are, because if this is a person you're going to be sitting in life with, you need to know that and you need to know, like is this something I'm okay with? Is there room here for you to learn or for me to learn off you? And that's important. So I think, even before there's a conversation about money because I think that really alienates people and if people are on the grind and you don't have the money, there's not really much to talk about in terms of money, no-transcript, all barriers of like everything.

Speaker 2: 9:58

And now my partner and I are at a point where we literally have our accounts open in front of each other and we go for our pay slips together. He'll be like he's quite on me to be like have you checked your pay slip this month? Because I don't ever do it until your event and your and your guests on the panel said check your pay slip. This was the first month I've done it in a long time and I only did it because I've got my bike with cycle to work scheme and I've paid it off now, so I need to make sure they're not still charging me. It was the only reason I checked um and because she said it so like he's much better at checking his and knowing what tax code means and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 10:31

So, um, yeah, I think you get to that point, or you should be getting that point of openness when you have to make these financial decisions and if you get pushback from your partner, there's going to be a deeper reason behind that and you need to dig because you don't want to be committing to financial big decisions and find out actually they've got really bad credit and this is all going to be on you and you've got no choice but to take the whole mortgage out in your name. And if they don't pay their half because you're in beef, then what do you do? And you know what's been a situation like that. So, no, dig deeper, don't accept no, but also look at why the person might be pulling back a bit like all of us. All our parents did their best, but they all obviously gave us different perspectives and traumas towards things, so that's probably the reason.

Speaker 1: 11:18

I think it's really good that you said that and I'm happy that you mentioned that. When you're younger, you are meant to be struggling honestly. When I look online, it baffles me when I see the 18 year olds now who are going to be struggling Honestly. When I look online, it baffles me when I see the 18-year-olds now who are going to Nobu Novikov, all these expensive places, the most expensive place that I went, and this was me really trying. I remember my friend was having a birthday we were 17 and she wanted to go to the Shard They've got restaurants in the Shard.

Speaker 1: 11:45

It's the chinese one, I think it's called hutong. We went there and I remember I went on the menu and I looked what's the cheapest milk I put together? Well, the cheapest one I can put together, and I think it was like 50 pounds and that was so much money. I think I even had to borrow from my cousin because I really wanted to go, because I said it's apparently so good, but I don't want to spend too much money. So she lent me 50 pounds and I gave it to her when I got paid, I think the following week for my part-time job. But that was the most expensive thing that I spent at that age. Yet we're seeing young people online spend hundreds and hundreds on a bill that people who are 10 years older than them still wouldn't do.

Speaker 2: 12:16

Do you know what? This is a really interesting point and I talk to my friends and partner about this all the time and I feel like we see that a lot. I see a lot of mismatched priorities for people who, from what you do, your actions, you can't mean what you say you want to have from a financial perspective. So, like, I've got a lot of friends who say, oh yeah, I want to buy, like, yeah, it would be really good to buy. Oh, so, yeah, buying would be great. And it's like for us to have bought in the way that we did and by that I mean, like you know, we weren't given money from our family. We were lucky enough to be able to stay in our family homes and pay like 200 pound a month for contribution, but we didn't get a 50k handout or anything like that. Um, and we we bought, again quite relatively young I was 26, he was 27 and in London and those conditions don't just happen. It's not because we just wanted it and it happened.

Speaker 2: 13:10

It takes sacrifice. It takes when you see everyone going to Nobu and this place and that place. You're doing the mental gymnastics, you're saving up for two weeks before to pay for that. You're cooking at home. You're sacrificing where you can, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Speaker 2: 13:28

I don't see why now we think that we don't have to sacrifice and we don't have to go without.

Speaker 2: 13:34

That's not the case. If you want these things, you have to do one or the other, and it doesn't have to be forever. It can be for a short amount of time, but just know that it's not going to come unless you do those things. So that's why when I see the, that used to really bother me, but now when I see that, even from people like similar to our age, I don't get triggered, I just feel like so. Then that means you know you could be spending that money and you could be living at your mum's house, not paying any bills and not having that, and that's fine. But that just means that your reality will only go to a certain point because you're clearly not willing to make the choices to get you to the next level. And I'm not saying the next level of property or a big financial decision is better, but I just think people need to be honest about what it is that they want with themselves absolutely because it's like who are you pretending for?

Speaker 1: 14:21

I don't know it's true, a lot of people that are near the conversations that I've had, a lot of people are doing these things and making decisions based on the perception, so they look like they're doing well as opposed to actually doing well, but people say, oh, you know what, bro, you've got it like you're doing well because you've got a nice car, whatever it is.

Speaker 1: 14:38

I think a lot of that is that and obviously that will probably filter down even into relationships like you said having those conversations, but let's just say, your partner and you have been fortunate enough that you guys have found it relatively easy to have those conversations and again you got to a certain point where you just couldn't avoid it anymore. But now you're very open. But for anyone who's listening, or may in the future encounter a relationship where they receive pushback from a partner when it comes to actually talking about money, and it could be for a number of reasons. One reason could be, as you mentioned, you know how you grew up, but it could be they're from a completely different background, yeah, to their partner. How can they begin to approach those conversations with someone who maybe they have conflicting upbringings or conflicting views on money?

Speaker 2: 15:23

I think the first thing is to approach it with love and to know that like, if especially like so in my relationship, for example, I very much had that, as I explained very nice upbringing, no worry of poverty. There was never a thing of like are we going to have dinner today? But my partner's wasn't exactly the same. You know, he had a single mom who did amazingly and times were hard sometimes, and so his, his response was very different. So where he got paid he was like I've got paid. Like you said, he wants to now show he's been paid. He wants to rid himself of all of that previous potential feeling of like oh, I haven't been paid, I didn't have this once, so now I'm going to have it now.

Speaker 2: 16:05

And so when I used to come in and be like why are you spending that? That's so dumb, but obviously that's like really like self-righteous and I know best and you don't know anything. Obviously that's just going to end in a conflict. But when I came to it in a nice way, potentially a little bit after, not in that moment and I was just like look, I've noticed that when this happens, this is what happens. And obviously you've said to me already that you don't want to be in a situation where you're low on this this month and you'd actually like to save this amount and it just seems like if you do that, you're not going to manage to do that, and I used to. You know, share experience of yourself Like I used to struggle with that as well, because or my friend used to struggle with that because of whatever and actually if you just change this and this, then it should. It should be better. So, trying to approach with love and understanding and knowing that your way isn't the better way it just might be the better way for the goal that you have coming up is really helpful, and also trying to understand why the person might be like this. So you know, like I said in my case which is common for a lot of people you will be in a relationship with someone who had a very different upbringing to you and therefore they're going to have a different perception of things than you are and there's things to learn from each other.

Speaker 2: 17:22

But in this position, you might just have a bit more, and it's the better thing to do to if you know a bit more. Don't show off about it and don't be an arsehole. Just be humble and loving enough to be like, look, if you win, I win, so let's win together and make this happen. But also, it does take, especially sadly, to typecast. But men, it's an ego thing. It's hard for them to be told, especially by a woman, that actually what you're doing isn't the best thing. And that will be a thing where, like, there's not really much you can do about that. It needs to be the man's emotional intelligence and ego working on himself. Um. So just bear that in mind.

Speaker 1: 18:02

There's only so much you can do. There's only so much you can do. When you were talking that, it was making me think about even friendships. So obviously we're talking about romantic relationships, because that's really where you're going to have to be the most vulnerable financially and honest exactly. But even when it comes to friendships, there is a level of that and I recognize now, obviously, doing what I do, my friends are very open with me. Yeah, all of them are very open with me. I even know a lot of their salaries. When they get pay rises, I'm the first one that they tell. I know exactly how much they're earning, which is great.

Speaker 1: 18:29

I'm glad that what I do is fostered, that within them that they feel they can be honest.

Speaker 1: 18:33

But sometimes and I've had it before I don't have it as much now, but my dad and I would talk and you know you want the best people and I'm like, oh, this person, like I love them so much.

Speaker 1: 18:42

I just wish that they would do this, or wish that they do why? Because if they just did that, it's a no-brainer, like they would really be able to do xyz. But it's remembering, like you said, that sometimes it takes time and it is approaching that with love, and some of my friends will come to me with questions or they want my opinion and stuff and for me I'm like, of course I just do this and just do this and go about that and do that and and you can reach there. But I recognize that everyone goes through different journeys at different times and obviously I'm talking from a friendship basis, so there is less of a imperative to have to do something in a certain time frame. However, I recognize that having these conversations will take time to implement because we come from different backgrounds. How I view money might be completely different to how you view money. We come from different backgrounds.

Speaker 2: 19:29

How I view money might be completely different to how you view money. You know, and also it is a privilege to have a not had to, um, bear the brunt of your family's financial struggles and be been in a position to learn from your family regarding money, and that's something that people like you and I need to be aware of, and that's something I didn't quite know. So when I would talk to my partner previously, before you know, early days, I'd be like, obviously, just say that, obviously, just in such a way that can be considered condescending. But I didn't mean it, that I'm just thinking this is common knowledge, don't we?

Speaker 2: 19:57

all know that no, if you haven't been showed you don't absolutely. So, understanding that as well. And yeah, like you say, there are some people where you know people can ask for your help, but they don't necessarily want it and you've got to put. What I do now is I put like the invisible gauge on to see, based on how you've, how you're living and what you've asked, do you really want to know what I think or do you just want to make it look like you want to know what?

Speaker 2: 20:25

I think and then reply accordingly, because it does waste your energy as well.

Speaker 1: 20:28

I mean I can't tell you five times yeah you've.

Speaker 1: 20:30

You've heard the first. Let's be honest now. I want to kind of bring it to womanhood. Okay, being a woman, something that you and I can both relate to, but there is some pressures when it comes to being a woman, especially when it comes to finances. So I want to ask you how much do you reckon that the financial cost or burden of raising a child actually influences women's desire to have children at a certain age? Because, if we look back, my parents had me at 24.

Speaker 1: 20:59

I'm 26 I can't even imagine having a kid two years ago. I, I, oh, I can't believe it. Some of my friends, their parents, had them as late teens, even earlier than my parents, and I'm like, obviously, having lived those ages now, I'm like I can't even me at 26, I can't even fathom it. Yeah, because it just costs so much money. So how much effect or impact do you think that the financial cost of having a child actually impacts women's decisions to go through with that?

Speaker 2: 21:24

it's funny. I think that it doesn't impact their decision as much as it presents as a handy reason not to I feel like it's more of a justification than a reason that they don't want to. I feel like women nowadays don't want to have children, more from the inconvenience side of things, it's more because a whole world has opened up to us. Now we we can see barley in five seconds. We couldn't do that before, our parents couldn't do that, and you know that's part of the reason why. What else is there to life?

Speaker 2: 21:57

obviously I'm not saying that everyone's uh conception was planned as well but also, like you know, you, you do your, you study, get a job, whatever. Okay, now what? And now our worlds are so much bigger to fit another little being into that world. It's hard to do, and and now you add on the cost of it.

Speaker 2: 22:17

Yeah, yeah, it's long, but I don't think the cost is, the forefront is the main reason how certain people move and the cost of things they do spend on, for example, surgery, let's think of, or even, like I said, travel cars, cars or experiences, or all these things. That's big bread, but we'll spend that, so it's the inconvenience. I think that stops with me more, but I think the cost is like a handy like and that too do you know what?

Speaker 1: 22:42

now you say that if I actually unpick it for myself, yeah, it's more inconvenience, yeah and then that's okay yeah that's 100% okay.

Speaker 2: 22:49

What I do think is another thing that actually does have more of an impact is how you know, from a corporate world perspective, you aren't being validated or treated or respected for your decision.

Speaker 2: 23:05

Like as someone who works in the corporate world.

Speaker 2: 23:08

Like when I tell people like I'm planning on having a family and stuff like that, it's almost like laughed out the room because I'm by other women, not even men, and you know, I know we feel like we've made strides and we have to certain states, but I work in tech and the majority of my calls are pale, male and stale and I'm the woman on them and they're all a lot older than me and some men don't even know that it's wrong to ask me as the only woman in the room, to do the writing on the whiteboard, like that's the kind of level we're at and some people listen to this won't see what's wrong with that either, and like we're still quite low in the pecking order, um, and that's even in these corporate environments.

Speaker 2: 23:47

And to be in a corporate environment like there's already lots of barriers you've had to pass, especially as a woman, woman of color like it's not easy. So to still be there shows that like things like maternity and women's health and periods, reproduction, fertility. These aren't conversations that are happening in a way that's conducive enough to keep us in a in a happy, balanced way, and I think that, from a corporate perspective, does play a massive impact on women as to why they can't, when they want to, or put it off or just eventually just decide not to absolutely, it is a massive part.

Speaker 1: 24:26

Like I said, the corporate part. I mentioned a few episodes back with Nikita. We were talking about the gender pension gap and the massive disparity. I can't remember the exact numbers now. I think it's like the average woman's pension pot size is six to nine thousand pounds and a man's is 205 000 pounds massive gap and there's a lot of reasons to that, a big reason being that she's had to stop work for women are child bearers exactly so.

Speaker 1: 24:51

If there's a woman who has one, two, three kids, that's quite a few career breaks. That's three years really, but yeah, plus however long you take to get back into it, right, and if you come back full time, if you've re-enrolled back in, how much you contribute? Have you reduced contributions? There's so many different factors within that, and that's just pensions. Totally Forget about wealth in general and assets and everything else. Where men really don't have to take leave like women do, obviously, there is paternity leave but do?

Speaker 2: 25:24

obviously there are. There is paternity leave, but if you look at what paternity leave is versus paternity, I think men two weeks is average.

Speaker 1: 25:25

That's good, that's even. That's really good. I'm actually really good. Yeah, I've heard some people have a couple days. When I told me he got something like three days, yeah, so that in itself is a big thing. And coming back to the point of you know, I mentioned that women there is that kind of barrier there. Like I said, inconvenience probably probably more the reason as opposed to money. But if we bring that down to a cultural lens, then I've been having conversations recently with some of my friends. Like I mentioned, I'm 26 and for me in my household I'm still very young. I'm a younger brother, but I'm still. My dad looks like whoa, talking about family's, like, well, chill out, you're still a kid in his eyes, yeah. But then I have other friends who are from, you know, ethnic backgrounds, whose parents aren't looking at you from the same lens.

Speaker 2: 26:05

They're like you're getting old.

Speaker 1: 26:06

Yeah, you're like you're getting old marriage, we need a ring, we need babies. So how do you think the cultural element impacts women into making their decisions? Because, like I said, there's women now who probably think, oh, I'm trying to work, I'm trying to do this and reach my goal before I have kids, but then you've got mum in one ear saying get married, dad in the other saying I'm not going to be here forever, I want to see grandkids. How does that have an impact?

Speaker 2: 26:28

I think it's massive. I think you know this is another form of the struggle ethnic people have. And this is another thing when we talk about white privilege. That is very different. We are we. We struggle to meet our parents wishes of us. We go to uni, obviously present company not included, but most of us go to uni. They do well, they kill themselves to get good grades. They don't disappoint their parents. Then they go and study something equally as difficult let's just be stereotypical medicine. They stay in that for another five, six years.

Speaker 2: 27:06

All those times they're getting hammered from the parents Make sure you don't get pregnant, make sure you don't do this, make sure you don't shame us, make sure you don't this, all of these things. Now they reached the ripe age of like 27, 28. Only now they're seeing a bit of bread. And now their parents are like where's the ring, where's the marriage, where's the kid? And I think this is so wrong because obviously, from a cultural perspective alone, take out money, take everything else we majority of ethnic people are not encouraged to date and to have like casual relationships. It's a massive thing. Yeah, you date to marry only, and that can only start from a certain age. What experience have you got to bring to the table at 28 when you haven't dated your whole life? And this is why when we see shows like sweet bobby on nitflix recently, which I've did a massive um video on tiktok about and got some very choice comments, but that's exactly what happens. You've not got experience to bring here and then you have to go out into this very scary, dangerous world to date for marriage, not even just to get to know someone for marriage. That's it and um. At the same time, you're having to live up to parents expectations from you for a work and financial perspective. It's too much for any one person.

Speaker 2: 28:19

No wonder more people are turning around and being like you know what, I don't want any part of this, and going all the way the other, the other direction, and I feel like a lot of that is driven more from rebellion than it is they actually don't want to. It's more that like I'm not going to have anyone tell me about my life anymore. So yeah, how do you like that? I'm not getting married and I'm not having kids and I'm not doing this and I'm not doing that, and that in the end, is just going to upset the person because they might actually want those things a bit later down the line. So I think it has a massive impact to answer your question, and I think this is why I it sounds like I'm being hard on women, but I do feel like we need to learn from especially the ethnic ones. We need to learn from a younger age to ask for what we want. So like there is a way to.

Speaker 2: 29:03

I don't plan on like taking massive hits, as I have all the children I want to have. I don't from a financial perspective and I plan on very much having a decent pension packet. Again, that takes strategy and thinking and my strategy is to work for companies that do give good maternity leave, that make sure I'm not going to be losing out on my wage every month, and then moving strategically to different roles or different positions or different forms of employment full time versus contract and increasing my rate as ever as I go. But for some people that seems too much of a big step. You need a lot of I don't know fearlessness to do that and I just think like that is the mentality that's holding us back. We need to accept this is flawed, it's against us, it's not for us, so we need to learn how to navigate it. That's all we can do Until it changes, which I'm not holding my breath for.

Speaker 2: 30:07

We need to navigate this and the way that we navigate this is we understand, we come together, we share, and that's why I talk about a lot. Salary transparency is so important. When you speak to another woman, you should feel comfortable telling her how much you get paid, because if I know how much you get paid and we work the same role, then you can go and ask for the same amount, or I can, and we can be together on like. Like you say, all the time, employers do not want to pay you more, they would rather pay you less. That's just business, but it's there for taking if you ask for it. So, yeah, I feel like that's a massive thing and I think, um, to answer your question, the ethnic thing is massive in terms of pressure and trying to navigate, uh, straddling like a job, at the same time doing well in your career. Add to that us not asking for enough.

Speaker 1: 30:53

I think that's just massive. All of that couples into what could sometimes be a disaster. But when you said the point of we're not encouraged today, I think so. I had two opposing parents. My dad, as I'm sure you can imagine. He was like no, you're my little girl. No, don't talk to any guys.

Speaker 2: 31:12

And then my mum, a bit more you know aware, a bit more with it.

Speaker 1: 31:18

She was like all right, not too young, but know you should have a little. That guy's cute. What about him? Do you know what? I mean? My mum was like that. So I think I had a nice balance where and now my dad's obviously come too, because I'm older now where it's like okay, eventually you want me to get married. I can't get married from my bedroom and never go out and talk to a man. This is it, that is it. So at some point I'm going to have to talk to a man. You're going to have to be outside. Yeah, I'm going to have to be outside. At some point I'm going to tell you I've got a boyfriend. It's just going to have to be life, because to get married, that's going to have to be the starting point, as he knows, because he has to do it himself. But having those conversations, I recognise that again, you know the privilege that you mentioned.

Speaker 1: 31:56

I recognise wasn't easy to begin with. Might have been, you know, breadcrumbs, but we were able to have those conversations where we're like, okay, cool, we're in agreement. I understand that. But even kind of back to your previous point about salary transparency, I said it before and I created a video actually, where I told a story when I went to one of my jobs.

Speaker 1: 32:12

We were all going for our review right, apple, go for our review and they tried to offer me lower for my increase. But I started it off. I said, right, everyone, you come out and you tell us what they gave you. Yes, you tell us. So everyone's coming out, everyone's getting the same thing, same thing. Then, me and someone else, we went in and we got offered lower. And then, obviously, like I said, when I pushed back and I asked for more and then they found out that we'd all been talking, we all got reprimanded for discussing salary.

Speaker 1: 32:42

Yeah, and then that is like you said, that is what employers want, because if they can get away with paying you less, it helps them. Their margins are bigger. It's not personal, it's a business thing, which is why, if you take the emotion out of it, it's not like my manager doesn't like me, it's just business. You take the emotion out of it. Then you're like well, no, that's why I'm going to push back and say, actually no, I deserve, I deserve this, and nine times out of ten they'll give it to you.

Speaker 2: 33:00

That's why you need to force hands. Yes, it's not every day, okay, some days. It's why, yeah, how come? And that was me Always and when. But blah blah blah's got that.

Speaker 2: 33:09

Yeah, and I'm just a bit disappointed about blah blah blah and electronic. I don't feel like it reflected the amount of work and all the rest of it was. Their reason was that my what I started on was higher than what some of my cohort have started on, and the reason that was higher was because I wasn't accepting less. I was taking a salary cut to come to this next job that I'm in at the moment. There's no way I'm taking a salary cut that much. You need to pay me a minimum of x and you need to sweeten the deal as well. You need to slap a little bonus on that too.

Speaker 2: 33:42

And they did it. And they told me please do not share this with anyone, please do not share this with anyone. And when I started getting friends with my other colleagues, we started talking and I was like how are you lot working for this? This is mad. But then I realized they did that because then when we get our salary increase, it seems so impressive. And that's why I wasn't impressed because I was like this doesn't really reflect my work or any of those things. And even if you don't get you know cause I'm not going to lie and say every time it works it doesn't Even if you don't get what you want from it, there's a record that you have questioned it, so next time they're going to underpay someone, they're going to think twice about underpaying you. And also there's a copy of you going out of your way and saying, just to mark this on email we had this conversation on this date.

Speaker 2: 34:24

I wasn't happy about that. This has been the outcome. Just so you know I'm not happy and therefore they know that when opportunities come which they will at all time, because it's the employees market, not the employers you are likely to turn unless they make that deal sweet for you. And it's always handy for employers to know that, I think, because they can't be thinking that you're just a sure bet. You're going to keep here nodding along. No, they need to know they can lose you. Yeah, and that is how you can, like I say, ask more, ask more for what you want and take up more room in these rooms, like we are. Like I say, in corporate tech especially, there are hardly any of us, and I know there's gonna be some man who pipes up in the comments being like well, in my company there's loads of women. That's your company, my friend.

Speaker 1: 35:05

That is not.

Speaker 2: 35:06

It's not the general consensus yes, so please remember that women like, if you're listening to this, like, please, that is the one thing I want you to take away from this that, like, we need to ask for more and we need to be more unapologetic and take up more room, because there's room for us.

Speaker 1: 35:20

There's lots of room and money to be made. Absolutely. I've been in rooms where previously I've been told, because I'm a woman and I'm black and I'm young and from inner city London, I'm not going to be here and I'm here. So absolutely. I think that's a strong message that you've left there and any men listening just to understand that and encourage that for any women in your industry.

Speaker 1: 35:41

If you're someone who can bring people in then to make an active effort to do so, before we round off this episode because this has been a great conversation I want to ask you then there are going to be women listening to this who are thinking right, okay, at some point I want to have children. Where we're at now, whether they're currently pregnant, whether they're planning to start a family, what are some of the things that they can do financially to prepare themselves? It could be some things that maybe you've considered or just in general, you think that women should be doing with their money to plan for the starting of their family.

Speaker 2: 36:12

First thing, every job you go to in the lead. Okay, before all of that, scratch that, have a rough idea of when you want to have children. Now, this sounds controversial. It sounds like, but you can't plan. I can hear my mom's voice. You can't plan. You can't plan this thing. I disagree. You can plan to an extent. You can plan a rough timeline of when you feel or want to be in a position to get pregnant. And I'm not going to say that there's a right time, there's a right age. I don't know that. I don't know your position, but I think you will know that how I thought about it is when is a time that, when I see that I'm pregnant, I'm not going to freak out? That's how you have to look at it. I think that's the only way I could do that. And then you, from there, have that in your mind and you're always looking for the maternity benefits in every role you go to. And I say that because I want you to be going to multiple roles. I don't want you to stay in the same job because you're not going to make any money that way.

Speaker 2: 37:11

Move roles regularly, regularly dependent on your industry and what you're going to be looking for for maternity, if you can, is six months and up full pay. Normally you get your maternity leave, which is a minimum of how, for three, four months, whatever, and then there's an amount of time you can have after, which is that statutory play pay. Statutory pay is something like 100 pound a week, averaging about 500 pounds a month. Yeah, shake your head, it's horrendous. Yeah, itous, that is not even going to scratch the surface. So, whatever you, your place is offering you for maternity, look at your money and work out how much you're going to need to have from maternity in whatever they give you. So let's say they give you six months and how much you're going to have to save before to last you for however long you want to stay off after the six months to supplement your statutory. Do that calculation and then you should try everything you can to make your position as as good as possible. So, solidify your position, uh, make sure that you're going to stay in that job for for a chunk of time, a remainder of time, um, and then when you do eventually get pregnant, I would recommend not sharing it with uh.

Speaker 2: 38:25

If you work in corporate anywhere I can't speak about other industries, but in corporate. Don't share it until you have had your minimum three months and you've had the scan and and, like you know, you know everything's good. And then read your company's policies and find out when the absolute cutoff you have to tell them is because even if you're in a situation where your maternity leave is good and they give you a good amount, um you, it's still corporate. Your blossom, your blessings can still be blocked. And there are how many cases we all know of a friend or an auntie or a family person who was up for a promotion. They got whispers that she might be pregnant and then the guy with the glasses and the white skin got it. Do you know what I mean? Someone else got it and that was just totally unfair and they explained it away by her performance or whatever. But we all know it's because she was pregnant.

Speaker 2: 39:16

And you've got to remember employers see paying pregnant women as dead money because you're not present, you're not in the company. Yes, they should be happy to pay you because you've given how much of your life to this company and you've made it a lot of money. But they're just not going to see it that way. So you have to be smart in knowing that and don't tell them until you absolutely have to. And then always have in the back of your mind, mind, keep some of your cards close to your chest, don't necessarily let on.

Speaker 2: 39:45

Let's say, you know you get something like six months paid maternity and, um, you get six months where you don't get paid full pay but you get statutory and you're allowed to stay off. That amount of time in the back of your mind, maybe be looking at will you be going back or will you be going to another role? Are the conditions here good enough for me to come back once I have a child to consider? Once, like you have a child, it's, I'm assuming, harder to just up and leave and go to work every day. Is this a place that's making you motivated to do that? If not, what can you be doing to get yourself in a position in a company that is so yeah, I feel like that's enough.

Speaker 1: 40:25

Those are some incredible tips, a lot that I haven't even considered because I'm not there yet, yeah, but it is very important for women in general to have that at the forefront. I think you've really encouraged that during this episode. So thank you so much for gracing the podcast with your presence and your incredible gems for everyone listening and watching. Where can they find you to find out more at?

Speaker 2: 40:45

myers minutes podcast tiktok instagram. On spotify. It's just myers minutes podcast. It's on apple. I'm breaking my way slowly into youtube. Give me time, but that's happening as well. But, yeah, listen to my podcast. More gems there and, um, I'd be happy to have you.

Speaker 1: 41:03

Amazing. All the links will be in the episode description anyway, so you can go and click wherever you're listening and watching to go straight to the my as Men's podcast. But thank you so much again for being in the episode Pleasure and we'll be back again next week with another episode. Bye guys, bye.